Discussion:
Holy Grail pedal becomes a tuner...
(too old to reply)
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-03 19:43:26 UTC
Permalink
...of sorts when I try
to use it with my mildly
modded Pignose G-40V --
it emits an E note (an
octave above the open E
string) that goes away
when I stomp the pedal
off. I like the reverb
effect fine, but that
whining E is intolerable.

It seems to be fine with
other amps, including
another, similarly modded
G-40V. Both have ~47K
series input resistors
added, mine has a 12AT7
in the first hole and a
DC filament mod for that
hole only -- his has the
stock 12AX7 and filament
wiring. Yes, I did try a
couple of other dual
triodes in that hole --
no effect on the whine,
which subjectively sounds
more square or sawtooth
than sine wave (no scope
here).
RS
2012-05-04 18:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Morgen
...of sorts when I try
to use it with my mildly
modded Pignose G-40V --
it emits an E note (an
octave above the open E
string) that goes away
when I stomp the pedal
off. I like the reverb
effect fine, but that
whining E is intolerable.
Hi Bruce,

That could be caused by a few different things, including
bleed-through of clock oscillators in the pedal. There may be
something about the input of the one amp that's demodulating the high
frequency clock or allowing it to pass through.

Ideally, you'd want to put a scope on it, but you could try filtering
the output of the pedal with a simple R-C filter. I could take a rough
guess at the impedance range, but it would be easier if you have a
schematic for the pedal.
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-04 19:05:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
...of sorts when I try
to use it with my mildly
modded Pignose G-40V --
it emits an E note (an
octave above the open E
string) that goes away
when I stomp the pedal
off. I like the reverb
effect fine, but that
whining E is intolerable.
Hi Bruce,
That could be caused by a few different things, including
bleed-through of clock oscillators in the pedal. There may be
something about the input of the one amp that's demodulating the high
frequency clock or allowing it to pass through.
That's a sensible hunch,
thanks.
Post by RS
Ideally, you'd want to put a scope on it, but you could try filtering
the output of the pedal with a simple R-C filter. I could take a rough
guess at the impedance range, but it would be easier if
you have a schematic for the pedal.
Those seem to be hard to
come by. The pedal is
built on a double-sided
PCB and most if its
function is in a surface-
mounted (quad flatback)
VLSI chip (Crystal
Semiconductors CS4811) --
I also see what look to
be a few small signal
transistors in metal
cans, a 7805 regulator, a
crystal (for the VLSI's
clock?), three little
SOICs, and a few chip
resistors and/or caps.

I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
Jack Drek
2012-05-04 19:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Morgen
I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
Ya know, I just go so away from pedals that
statement made me wake up. 'pedals' used to be
easy to work on, and got ya the sound ya needed.

..times have changed..

I looked thru my files, and could not find it..sorry..

I remember when the Rockman 1st came out. Few,
within 100 miles could fix them. They became land fill.

And I tell you as truth, EVERY (!!) major US/UK company
(usuk?) has or has had a land fill of un fix'able parts,
esp cabs, PCBs, etc. I've seen them in person 3 times.

..3 diff companies...

But it got to the point, the R/Mans that died were cheaper
to replace, then pay (untrained pot smoking etc 'techs')
to maybe fix these things..and not scratch the plastic.

Now, the dealers were smarter then the l/guitar player
from Boston. He told the dealers to just throw the broken
ones away. Jr in the back room knows it's just a boink
in the vatever, they were made rather well. They would
fix them, re-sell them, etc. Here's a story..<inflate>

When they tried to turn the RM units into 8-12 stacks, they
came to EAW (then located and me working) in central Ma,
to make cabinets. I don't believe anything came out of it,
in fact I doubt if 50 of those stacks were ever built by
anyone (got me a paper catalog), but that time I got to
visit these people. Nothing big, in a sort of small building
off a main road, NOT a factory. I dropped off cabs, got the tour.

There was the LP that had what was then to be the NEXT BIG THING
on a table. Some intense tuning gears, like slotted Martins, and 4
then, 'space like'.. Said player and we talked about it, to me it
seemed like a flock of alot of work to 'convert' LPs to this gear.

I don't remember if anything ever happened with it...


JJTj



*> SENT FROM CELL PHONE DECK# X713981HS <*
*> NO REPLY MODE GIGANEWS KSTWS-OfQ9 <*
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-04 20:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Drek
Post by Bruce Morgen
I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
Ya know, I just go so away from pedals that
statement made me wake up. 'pedals' used to be
easy to work on, and got ya the sound ya needed.
This one doesn't look
especially hard to work
on physically -- but
all the functionality
is in one VLSI DSP chip
and that usually means
most of the engineering
isn't in the circuit,
but in the firmware
code used to control
that chip. I think RS
is on the right track --
perhaps a simple RC
network between the PCB
and the stomp switch
will do the trick. I
could also mod the amp,
e.g. put in a crude
effects loop in front of
the PI stage and see if
it behaves connected that
way....
Post by Jack Drek
..times have changed..
I looked thru my files, and could not find it..sorry..
No prob -- it doesn't seem
to exist. :-(

NNB
Post by Jack Drek
I remember when the Rockman 1st came out. Few,
within 100 miles could fix them. They became land fill.
And I tell you as truth, EVERY (!!) major US/UK company
(usuk?) has or has had a land fill of un fix'able parts,
esp cabs, PCBs, etc. I've seen them in person 3 times.
..3 diff companies...
But it got to the point, the R/Mans that died were cheaper
to replace, then pay (untrained pot smoking etc 'techs')
to maybe fix these things..and not scratch the plastic.
Now, the dealers were smarter then the l/guitar player
from Boston. He told the dealers to just throw the broken
ones away. Jr in the back room knows it's just a boink
in the vatever, they were made rather well. They would
fix them, re-sell them, etc. Here's a story..<inflate>
When they tried to turn the RM units into 8-12 stacks, they
came to EAW (then located and me working) in central Ma,
to make cabinets. I don't believe anything came out of it,
in fact I doubt if 50 of those stacks were ever built by
anyone (got me a paper catalog), but that time I got to
visit these people. Nothing big, in a sort of small building
off a main road, NOT a factory. I dropped off cabs, got the tour.
There was the LP that had what was then to be the NEXT BIG THING
on a table. Some intense tuning gears, like slotted Martins, and 4
then, 'space like'.. Said player and we talked about it, to me it
seemed like a flock of alot of work to 'convert' LPs to this gear.
I don't remember if anything ever happened with it...
JJTj
*> SENT FROM CELL PHONE DECK# X713981HS <*
*> NO REPLY MODE GIGANEWS KSTWS-OfQ9 <*
Jim
2012-05-04 23:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Drek
Post by Bruce Morgen
I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
Ya know, I just go so away from pedals that
statement made me wake up. 'pedals' used to be
easy to work on, and got ya the sound ya needed.
..times have changed.
At the risk of pulling this thread more off topic, I have another gripe.

Some pedals that were once easy to modify and/or fix are now surface
mount components! It ruins them, IMHO, because I like to tinker and modify.
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-04 23:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
Post by Jack Drek
Post by Bruce Morgen
I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
Ya know, I just go so away from pedals that
statement made me wake up. 'pedals' used to be
easy to work on, and got ya the sound ya needed.
..times have changed.
At the risk of pulling this thread more off topic, I have another gripe.
Some pedals that were once easy to modify and/or fix are now surface
mount components! It ruins them, IMHO, because I like to tinker and modify.
Surface mounting has been
the standard way to design
and populate PCBs for a
couple of decades now --
from the manufacturer's
P.O.V., it saves gobs of
$$ without impacting
reliability (assuming it's
done correctly, of course),
plus a lot of the ICs
modern pedals depend upon
are either unavailable or
much pricier in DIP
packaging. Can you tell
they're not especially
concerned with the tiny
sector of their market that
tinkers with and/or mods
their products? :-(
Lord Valve
2012-05-05 02:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Drek
Post by Bruce Morgen
I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
Ya know, I just go so away from pedals that
statement made me wake up. 'pedals' used to be
easy to work on, and got ya the sound ya needed.
..times have changed..
I looked thru my files, and could not find it..sorry..
Dealt with 13 years ago:

From: ***@ix.netcom.com(Lord Valve)
Subject: Re: OT: Oscillation problem in tuner?
Date: 1999/05/06
Message-ID: <7gsilu$***@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 474811393
References: <***@facstaff.wiscDOTedu>
<***@bocanet.com> <***@facstaff.wiscDOTedu>
Organization: Netcom
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 06 12:14:38 PM CDT 1999
Newsgroups: alt.guitar.amps
Post by Jack Drek
Post by Bruce Morgen
I have a RT-1600 rack tuner I've been using for years. It has a
tuning
Post by Jack Drek
Post by Bruce Morgen
tone that you can use to tune with, you might check and see if it's
activated.
This doesn't have a tuning tone, but even if it did, this isn't a
"tone"
Post by Jack Drek
that's leaking through. It's more like the whine of an idling jet.
Also, I had to move it away from my wireless receiver in my rack,
'cause
Post by Jack Drek
it was causing problems in the wireless. When any of the LEDs flash,
you could hear a fluctuation in the whine.
CT
Clock leakage. Find the clock chip, look for bad solder joints
in the area. Look especially at any ceramic disc caps in the
clock area.
LV
Tony Elka
2012-05-05 02:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lord Valve
Clock leakage. Find the clock chip, look for bad solder joints
in the area. Look especially at any ceramic disc caps in the
clock area.
LV
May I ask you a Marshall question?

Tony
RS
2012-05-05 05:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
...of sorts when I try
to use it with my mildly
modded Pignose G-40V --
it emits an E note (an
octave above the open E
string) that goes away
when I stomp the pedal
off. I like the reverb
effect fine, but that
whining E is intolerable.
Hi Bruce,
That could be caused by a few different things, including
bleed-through of clock oscillators in the pedal. There may be
something about the input of the one amp that's demodulating the high
frequency clock or allowing it to pass through.
That's a sensible hunch,
thanks.
Post by RS
Ideally, you'd want to put a scope on it, but you could try filtering
the output of the pedal with a simple R-C filter. I could take a rough
guess at the impedance range, but it would be easier if
you have a schematic for the pedal.
...
Post by Bruce Morgen
I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
I really only wanted to see the output stage, so I can just take a
guess at impedances. As an experiment, try hooking a simple RC filter
between the box and amp. 100k resistor resistor in series, with a
100pf cap hooked to the 'amp' side of the resistor, and other cap lead
hooked to ground. I'm sure you know the deal.

There are other possibilities of course, but this would be a good test
to start with.
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-05 18:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
...of sorts when I try
to use it with my mildly
modded Pignose G-40V --
it emits an E note (an
octave above the open E
string) that goes away
when I stomp the pedal
off. I like the reverb
effect fine, but that
whining E is intolerable.
Hi Bruce,
That could be caused by a few different things, including
bleed-through of clock oscillators in the pedal. There may be
something about the input of the one amp that's demodulating the high
frequency clock or allowing it to pass through.
That's a sensible hunch,
thanks.
Post by RS
Ideally, you'd want to put a scope on it, but you could try filtering
the output of the pedal with a simple R-C filter. I could take a rough
guess at the impedance range, but it would be easier if
you have a schematic for the pedal.
...
Post by Bruce Morgen
I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
I really only wanted to see the output stage, so I can just take a
guess at impedances. As an experiment, try hooking a simple RC filter
between the box and amp. 100k resistor resistor in series, with a
100pf cap hooked to the 'amp' side of the resistor, and other cap lead
hooked to ground. I'm sure you know the deal.
Yup, clear as a bell -- thanks!
Post by RS
There are other possibilities of course, but this would
be a good test to start with.
OK, simple enough!
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-05 18:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
...of sorts when I try
to use it with my mildly
modded Pignose G-40V --
it emits an E note (an
octave above the open E
string) that goes away
when I stomp the pedal
off. I like the reverb
effect fine, but that
whining E is intolerable.
Hi Bruce,
That could be caused by a few different things, including
bleed-through of clock oscillators in the pedal. There may be
something about the input of the one amp that's demodulating the high
frequency clock or allowing it to pass through.
That's a sensible hunch,
thanks.
Post by RS
Ideally, you'd want to put a scope on it, but you could try filtering
the output of the pedal with a simple R-C filter. I could take a rough
guess at the impedance range, but it would be easier if
you have a schematic for the pedal.
...
Post by Bruce Morgen
I'll keep trying to find
that diagram....
I really only wanted to see the output stage, so I can just take a
guess at impedances. As an experiment, try hooking a simple RC filter
between the box and amp. 100k resistor resistor in series, with a
100pf cap hooked to the 'amp' side of the resistor, and other cap lead
hooked to ground. I'm sure you know the deal.
Yup, clear as a bell -- thanks!
Post by RS
There are other possibilities of course, but this would
be a good test to start with.
OK, simple enough!
Just for jollies, and
because I already have a
365 pf variable cap I
had rigged up with 1/4"
connectors to test the
effects of shunt cable
capacitance, I tried that
gizmo without any series
resistance -- just plain
capacitance across the
connection between pedal
and amp. The variable
has a nominal range of 10
to 365 pf and increasing
the capacitance made the
tone/whining louder -- it
was quietest (but not
absent) toward the low
(10 pf) side. I can add
a 250K linear pot to the
gizmo, wired in series as
a variable resistor, that
way I'll be able to vary
both (parallel, on the
"output" side) C and
(series, between "input"
and "output") R at will.

Sound sensible, given no
scope or schematic?
RS
2012-05-06 04:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Morgen
Just for jollies, and
because I already have a
365 pf variable cap I
had rigged up with 1/4"
connectors to test the
effects of shunt cable
capacitance, I tried that
gizmo without any series
resistance -- just plain
capacitance across the
connection between pedal
and amp. The variable
has a nominal range of 10
to 365 pf and increasing
the capacitance made the
tone/whining louder -- it
was quietest (but not
absent) toward the low
(10 pf) side. I can add
a 250K linear pot to the
gizmo, wired in series as
a variable resistor, that
way I'll be able to vary
both (parallel, on the
"output" side) C and
(series, between "input"
and "output") R at will.
Sound sensible, given no
scope or schematic?
Yes, try it with the series resistor. That's an odd symptom though.
You sure the problem doesn't involve the amp?

What was the result of your cable capacitance experiment?
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-06 05:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Just for jollies, and
because I already have a
365 pf variable cap I
had rigged up with 1/4"
connectors to test the
effects of shunt cable
capacitance, I tried that
gizmo without any series
resistance -- just plain
capacitance across the
connection between pedal
and amp. The variable
has a nominal range of 10
to 365 pf and increasing
the capacitance made the
tone/whining louder -- it
was quietest (but not
absent) toward the low
(10 pf) side. I can add
a 250K linear pot to the
gizmo, wired in series as
a variable resistor, that
way I'll be able to vary
both (parallel, on the
"output" side) C and
(series, between "input"
and "output") R at will.
Sound sensible, given no
scope or schematic?
Yes, try it with the series resistor. That's an odd symptom though.
You sure the problem doesn't involve the amp?
I'm pretty sure it does
-- if you go back up-
thread, you'll see that
only one amp has the
issue. Another of the
same model doesn't.
The two are similarly
but not identically
modded -- both have a
47k(iirc) series input
resistor added, but only
the troublesome one has
DC on the first hole
filament. That mod
entailed some twisted
pair to bring 6.3VAC
from the PT to a bridge
rectifier circuit -- it
really doesn't do much
in the way of hum
reduction, but I didn't
feel like undoing it
since the amp works fine
other than with this one
pedal. I've always
considered the filament
pretty much isolated
from the cathode and the
rest of the tube, so I
never considered that
mod a likely suspect --
am I missing something?
Post by RS
What was the result of your cable capacitance experiment?
Cable capacitance is a
real issue, that's for
sure -- the less the
better. Also, I found
that deliberately
adding some capacitance
can uncover some sounds
that could be useful --
sort of like the coily
cords of yor, you can
trade off some highs for
some Hendrixy "roar" if
that's what you're
looking for, but iimo
that's better done with
a capacitor so that you
can get back the sparkle
at will. Hendrix
alternated between a
coily cord and a short
cable in the studio, but
you can get pretty much
the same function with a
capacitor and make it
literally switchable
either inside the guitar
or via a reachable (or
stompable) gizmo in the
signal chain as long as
you use low-capacitance
cables. IOW, it's easy
to add shunt capacitance
if you start low, but if
your cable is already
highly capacitive you're
kind of screwed. :-)
RS
2012-05-10 04:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
The variable
has a nominal range of 10
to 365 pf and increasing
the capacitance made the
tone/whining louder -- it
was quietest (but not
absent) toward the low
(10 pf) side. I can add
a 250K linear pot to the
gizmo, wired in series as
a variable resistor...
Yes, try it with the series resistor. That's an odd symptom though.
You sure the problem doesn't involve the amp?
I'm pretty sure it does
-- if you go back up-
thread, you'll see that
only one amp has the
issue. Another of the
same model doesn't.
Yes, I had seen that, but it sounded like the problem involves both
the Holy Grail and the amp together. Given that your other amp doesn't
exhibit the problem, it could have more to do with the amp. Your
capacitor test seems less likely to have affected the Grail than the
amp. If you have a phase shifted signal coupling around the amp, a cap
on the input could definitely affect that. It seems less likely to do
anything equivalent with the lower impedances of the Grail output
circuit (360pf ain't much at that impedance scale). Tough to say
though without seeing it.
Post by Bruce Morgen
The two are similarly
but not identically
modded -- both have a
47k(iirc) series input
resistor added, but only
the troublesome one has
DC on the first hole
filament. That mod
entailed some twisted
pair to bring 6.3VAC
from the PT to a bridge
rectifier circuit
Is it ground-referenced?
Post by Bruce Morgen
I've always
considered the filament
pretty much isolated
from the cathode and the
rest of the tube,
Well, within limits.
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
What was the result of your cable capacitance experiment?
Cable capacitance is a
real issue, that's for
sure -- the less the
better.
Some disparate things going on though. It's easy to impress listeners
with increased high end. On the other hand, cable capacitance has
always been an integral part of the sound, and players often don't
like preamps in their guitars for that reason.
Post by Bruce Morgen
Also, I found
that deliberately
adding some capacitance
can uncover some sounds
that could be useful --
sort of like the coily
cords of yor, you can
trade off some highs for
some Hendrixy "roar" if
that's what you're
looking for,
Yeah, capacitance has a more pronounced effect there, as it's working
against pickup impedance rather than simple resistance. LC vs RC.
Post by Bruce Morgen
IOW, it's easy
to add shunt capacitance
if you start low, but if
your cable is already
highly capacitive you're
kind of screwed. :-)
Have you seen Gore/Elixir low-capacitance cables? You may appreciate
those. They sent me samples, which I have yet to try. Supposed to be
very effective, if that's what you're after.
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-10 05:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
The variable
has a nominal range of 10
to 365 pf and increasing
the capacitance made the
tone/whining louder -- it
was quietest (but not
absent) toward the low
(10 pf) side. I can add
a 250K linear pot to the
gizmo, wired in series as
a variable resistor...
Yes, try it with the series resistor. That's an odd symptom though.
You sure the problem doesn't involve the amp?
I'm pretty sure it does
-- if you go back up-
thread, you'll see that
only one amp has the
issue. Another of the
same model doesn't.
Yes, I had seen that, but it sounded like the problem involves both
the Holy Grail and the amp together. Given that your other amp doesn't
exhibit the problem, it could have more to do with the amp. Your
capacitor test seems less likely to have affected the Grail than the
amp. If you have a phase shifted signal coupling around the amp, a cap
on the input could definitely affect that. It seems less likely to do
anything equivalent with the lower impedances of the Grail output
circuit (360pf ain't much at that impedance scale). Tough to say
though without seeing it.
Post by Bruce Morgen
The two are similarly
but not identically
modded -- both have a
47k(iirc) series input
resistor added, but only
the troublesome one has
DC on the first hole
filament. That mod
entailed some twisted
pair to bring 6.3VAC
from the PT to a bridge
rectifier circuit
Is it ground-referenced?
No, straight series resistor
a la Leo, not a voltage
divider or some such. Both
amps have it. One good
thing about swapping in
other dual-triodes while
trying to track down this
problem: I came across a JJ
ECC832 (12DW7) I'd bought a
few years back and at the
time never really used, and
it really helped this amp --
less gain in the second
preamp stage really tamed it
down, now the little thing
can do loud and clean almost
nicely as my Twin, and it's
a fraction of the size and
weight of that monster.
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
I've always
considered the filament
pretty much isolated
from the cathode and the
rest of the tube,
Well, within limits.
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
What was the result of your cable capacitance experiment?
Cable capacitance is a
real issue, that's for
sure -- the less the
better.
Some disparate things going on though. It's easy to impress listeners
with increased high end. On the other hand, cable capacitance has
always been an integral part of the sound, and players often don't
like preamps in their guitars for that reason.
If you want that sort of
effect, you can add a
capacitor either in the
guitar or a stompbox --
and then you can have on
demand instead of all
the time, no tradeoff
incurred.
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Also, I found
that deliberately
adding some capacitance
can uncover some sounds
that could be useful --
sort of like the coily
cords of yor, you can
trade off some highs for
some Hendrixy "roar" if
that's what you're
looking for,
Yeah, capacitance has a more pronounced effect there, as it's working
against pickup impedance rather than simple resistance. LC vs RC.
Well, R is still a factor
-- as a matter high coil
resistance via very fine
wire does wonders for the
LCR numbers, it makes a
conventional pot & cap
tone control much more
effective while limiting
the effect of cable
capacitance. That's one
of the virtues of Bill's
new Microcoil pickups --
high R, low L, highly
effective tone control
with a normal 22 nF cap,
little or no worry about
cable length.
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
IOW, it's easy
to add shunt capacitance
if you start low, but if
your cable is already
highly capacitive you're
kind of screwed. :-)
Have you seen Gore/Elixir low-capacitance cables? You may appreciate
those. They sent me samples, which I have yet to try. Supposed to be
very effective, if that's what you're after.
Got plenty of low-capacitance
cable when I worked with Bill
-- since I don't play out on
big stages, that cable is fine
for me, even though it's
mostly sold for hooking pedals
and/or rack gear together. I
used a short length of it for
my shunt capacitance tests --
wanted to have as little to
start with as possible. If
your cable measures under 25
pF per foot @ 1000 Hz, that's
pretty low -- Bill's measures
about 21-22 pF per foot.
RS
2012-05-10 19:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
The two are similarly
but not identically
modded -- both have a
47k(iirc) series input
resistor added, but only
the troublesome one has
DC on the first hole
filament. That mod
entailed some twisted
pair to bring 6.3VAC
from the PT to a bridge
rectifier circuit
Is it ground-referenced?
No, straight series resistor
a la Leo, not a voltage
divider or some such. Both
amps have it.
Not sure I follow, Bruce. I was referring to whether the filament
supply was ground ref'd or floating. Just trying to narrow down the
differences between the two amps.
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Yeah, capacitance has a more pronounced effect there, as it's working
against pickup impedance rather than simple resistance. LC vs RC.
Well, R is still a factor
-- as a matter high coil
resistance via very fine
wire does wonders for the
LCR numbers, it makes a
conventional pot & cap
tone control much more
effective while limiting
the effect of cable
capacitance. That's one
of the virtues of Bill's
new Microcoil pickups --
high R, low L, highly
effective tone control
with a normal 22 nF cap,
little or no worry about
cable length.
I haven't seen the Lawrence Microcoils yet. I'll check them out.
How would -increased- coil resistance limit the effect of cable
capacitance?
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-10 19:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
The two are similarly
but not identically
modded -- both have a
47k(iirc) series input
resistor added, but only
the troublesome one has
DC on the first hole
filament. That mod
entailed some twisted
pair to bring 6.3VAC
from the PT to a bridge
rectifier circuit
Is it ground-referenced?
No, straight series resistor
a la Leo, not a voltage
divider or some such. Both
amps have it.
Not sure I follow, Bruce. I was referring to whether the filament
supply was ground ref'd or floating. Just trying to narrow down the
differences between the two amps.
The DC to the first hole
socket is floating. The
filament winding of the
PT is ground-referenced
via a pair of 100 ohm 1
watt resistors.
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
Yeah, capacitance has a more pronounced effect there, as it's working
against pickup impedance rather than simple resistance. LC vs RC.
Well, R is still a factor
-- as a matter high coil
resistance via very fine
wire does wonders for the
LCR numbers, it makes a
conventional pot & cap
tone control much more
effective while limiting
the effect of cable
capacitance. That's one
of the virtues of Bill's
new Microcoil pickups --
high R, low L, highly
effective tone control
with a normal 22 nF cap,
little or no worry about
cable length.
I haven't seen the Lawrence Microcoils yet. I'll check them out.
How would -increased- coil resistance limit the effect of cable
capacitance?
Bill showed me the LCR
calculations, but I don't
remember them, sorry --
but I can say that I can
switch from my three foot
practice cable to a
fifteen footer with no
discernible loss of highs
on my Microcoil-equipped
guitar; the same change
with my other guitars
definitely incurs an
audible loss in sparkle
that I have to compensate
for with the amp's
"presence" control.

Here's what they look
like:

<Loading Image...>

I never finished this
write-up, but you might
find it interesting:
_____

(Note: Below I will try to convey some of my limited understanding of the MicroCoils -- I am
neither a pickup designer nor a physicist, so all the useful and accurate information comes from
Bill while any errors in my explanation are strictly my own.)

Like many revolutionary products, the MicroCoils are deceptively simple in principle -- they are
single-coil guitar pickups, superficially similar to such venerable designs as Gibson's famous
P-90. They feature screw-adjustable, unhardened steel pole pieces charged by a bar magnet, just
like an old P-90. Now I like a good P-90 as much as the next guy and they're featured in many
famous recordings, but their flaws are also very well known. For example, they pick up an enormous
amount of AC hum (a trait that turned Gibson toward humbucking pickups in the 1950s), they tend to
be one-trick ponies tonally (especially in solid-body guitars), and as they age they become
notoriously vulnerable to frustrating microphonic squealing at rock and roll stage volumes.

So, you may well ask, if MicroCoils are like P-90s, what makes them revolutionary? As a player and
listener I can boil that down to one word -- performance -- but that doesn't explain Bill's
achievement. Part of what separates the MicroCoils from all previous single-coil designs is
materials -- neodymium bar magnets were not available circa 1950, and neither was a coil winding
technology capable of handling the extremely fine magnet wire necessary to build a MicroCoil. Being
able to wind with such fine wire at high speed on oblong coil forms without introducing
tone-sucking flaws is another major part of what makes the MicroCoils possible, because using fine
wire allows more turns of wire for any given winding space.

The "Micro" in MicroCoil refers to the very narrow winding space Bill specified. Limiting the
available winding space has a couple of key advantages. First of all, it limits hum to a level
that's so low that many at first don't believe they're listening to a true single-coil pickup. More
importantly, at least as I see it, the narrower the winding space the more phase coherent the
signal coming from the pickup. Most electric guitarists are at least somewhat familiar with phasing
issues -- the famous "quack" tone of a Fender Stratocaster comes from the partial phase
cancellation that occurs when the outputs of two nearly adjacent pickups are combined, as they are
in switch positions 2 and 4 of a Strat.

What's not so well known is that more subtle -- but definitely audible -- partial phase
cancellations also occur within a pickup's coil because part of the signal is coming from turns
close to the string and part of it comes from turns considerably further away. For true phase
coherence, every turn of the pickup's coil would have to be equidistant from the string, a
practical impossibility. What Bill did was to minimize phase cancellation to the extent that's
practical by specifying that very narrow MicroCoil winding space. This is what allows the
MicroCoils' exquisite tonal purity, which I'm sure Bill could explain in proper technical terms but
to my ear comes across as a sense of intimacy with the string that I've never heard from any other
guitar pickup -- it's like a MicroCoil is a freshly washed pane of clear glass, while traditional
single-coil designs are more like a piece of waxed paper or even cheesecloth, with the pickup's
coil dimensions impacting clarity in a way that cannot be readily corrected elsewhere in the signal
chain. In contrast, the more phase coherent, transparent clarity of a MicroCoil can be readily
altered to achieve all manner of "waxed paper" or "cheesecloth" effects -- but the player is never
stuck with a sound he may only want once in a while. One of Bill's design watchwords has always
been "versatility," and their transparency helps make MicroCoils amazingly versatile.

Efficiency

Another advantage of the MicroCoils' narrow winding space is that more turns closer to the strings
make for improved efficiency -- more signal for any given inductance. An additional factor in the
MicroCoils' impressive efficiency is the meticulous design of the magnetic circuit. Total magnetism
-- which experts call the "energy product" -- has two components. Just as electricity has voltage
and current (amperes), magnetism has magnetic attraction (gauss) and demagnetization force
(oersted). While magnetic attraction is what causes string-strangling problems like "Stratitis" and
loss of sustain, it turns out it's the demagnetization force that's more relevant to how much
signal is generated. One type of magnet that favors the desirable demagnetization force over the
often-troublesome magnetic attraction is the modern neodymium variety. Unfortunately, such magnets
are far too strong -- they have a very large total energy product -- to charge pole pieces
directly. Bill's MicroCoil magnetic circuit includes a steel moderator bar between the neodymium
bar magnet and the pole pieces -- this maintains a favorable ratio of demagnetization force to
magnetic attraction while reducing the latter to a level that avoids loss of sustain or
"Stratitis."

Wonderful "side effects"

Bill's design goal of versatility implies that the instrument's controls be highly effective in
altering the sound -- for high inductance designs like the Bill's famous L-500XL humbucker, the
best way to meet that goal is to employ an inductor (passive coil) in a tone control circuit that
optionally also includes a resistor along with the usual capacitor in a circuit Bill calls a
"Q-Filter." Without getting into the actual math, the very fine wire used in the MicroCoils
increases the electrical resistance (Er) and thus alters the LCR
(inductance/capacitance/resistance) interaction that determines (among other things) how the tone
control operates. This in turn allows a conventional tone circuit (comprising a potentiometer wired
as a variable resistor in series with a capacitor) to operate much more effectively than it does
with conventional single-coils and eliminates the need for an inductor as in the "Q-Filter." This
means that the MicroCoils can be perfect, "drop-in" replacement pickups -- at most, you might find
you like a different capacitor value, but the tone circuit can remain just like it came from the
factory. I found the typical 22 nanofarad (.022 mFd) "chicklet" capacitor in my guitar to be pretty
much perfect.

Another wonderful "side effect" of installing MicroCoils is that the same altered LCR interaction
that permits a conventional tone circuit also minimizes the effect of cable capacitance. Excessive
cable capacitance has a major impact on the performance of guitars with high inductance pickups and
even many lower inductance models wound with a typically thicker magnet wire -- to avoid severe
losses in the cable, low capacitance cable (25 picofarad/foot or lower) is a must and even then
cable length needs to considered. With the MicroCoils, this issue becomes pretty much a non-problem
-- you can use virtually any cable for a short (ten feet or less) run, or choose a low-capacitance
cable (I use Bill's cable and solderless plugs) that's considerably longer with no ill effects -- I
just measured the cable I've been using regularly and it's nearly 15 feet long!
_____

Like I said, it's unfinished -- I just hope you find it helpful!
RS
2012-05-11 00:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
I was referring to whether the filament
supply was ground ref'd or floating. Just trying to narrow down the
differences between the two amps.
The DC to the first hole
socket is floating. The
filament winding of the
PT is ground-referenced
via a pair of 100 ohm 1
watt resistors.
Is there a schematic online somewhere? I'd think that the 100ohm
resistors would be enough of a ground-ref, presuming the circuit is as
I'm imagining. You could also switch the filaments back to AC to see
if that has any bearing.
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
I haven't seen the Lawrence Microcoils yet. I'll check them out.
How would -increased- coil resistance limit the effect of cable
capacitance?
Bill showed me the LCR
calculations, but I don't
remember them, sorry --
but I can say that I can
switch from my three foot
practice cable to a
fifteen footer with no
discernible loss of highs
on my Microcoil-equipped
guitar; the same change
with my other guitars
definitely incurs an
audible loss in sparkle
that I have to compensate
for with the amp's
"presence" control.
Interesting! I'll definitely look into those pickups.
Post by Bruce Morgen
Here's what they look
<http://wildepickups.com/images/ddce0d3d0b169381f97ece44a4c11a84.jpg>
I never finished this
write-up, but you might
Nice review. (I'll leave it intact below). The structure is difficult
to discern from the pictures. They all obviously have a narrow coil
very near to the strings, with a mechanical 'elevation' where the
remainder of the regular coil would normally be. I couldn't see much
in the way of magnets though. And one of the pictures looks like
there's something made of copper on the bottom section.

I couldn't find much on Bill's site about those. If you talk to him,
tell him it would be nice to see a couple pages of tech info on the
MicroCoils. I may have to get a set of those. He doesn't make a P90
version, does he?

He also has a custom pickup that I'm interested in...the cross between
a Jazzmaster and P90. I've always wondered why no one did that. That's
not hum-canceling though, is it?
Post by Bruce Morgen
_____
(Note: Below I will try to convey some of my limited understanding of the MicroCoils -- I am
neither a pickup designer nor a physicist, so all the useful and accurate information comes from
Bill while any errors in my explanation are strictly my own.)
Like many revolutionary products, the MicroCoils are deceptively simple in principle -- they are
single-coil guitar pickups, superficially similar to such venerable designs as Gibson's famous
P-90. They feature screw-adjustable, unhardened steel pole pieces charged by a bar magnet, just
like an old P-90. Now I like a good P-90 as much as the next guy and they're featured in many
famous recordings, but their flaws are also very well known. For example, they pick up an enormous
amount of AC hum (a trait that turned Gibson toward humbucking pickups in the 1950s), they tend to
be one-trick ponies tonally (especially in solid-body guitars), and as they age they become
notoriously vulnerable to frustrating microphonic squealing at rock and roll stage volumes.
So, you may well ask, if MicroCoils are like P-90s, what makes them revolutionary? As a player and
listener I can boil that down to one word -- performance -- but that doesn't explain Bill's
achievement. Part of what separates the MicroCoils from all previous single-coil designs is
materials -- neodymium bar magnets were not available circa 1950, and neither was a coil winding
technology capable of handling the extremely fine magnet wire necessary to build a MicroCoil. Being
able to wind with such fine wire at high speed on oblong coil forms without introducing
tone-sucking flaws is another major part of what makes the MicroCoils possible, because using fine
wire allows more turns of wire for any given winding space.
The "Micro" in MicroCoil refers to the very narrow winding space Bill specified. Limiting the
available winding space has a couple of key advantages. First of all, it limits hum to a level
that's so low that many at first don't believe they're listening to a true single-coil pickup. More
importantly, at least as I see it, the narrower the winding space the more phase coherent the
signal coming from the pickup. Most electric guitarists are at least somewhat familiar with phasing
issues -- the famous "quack" tone of a Fender Stratocaster comes from the partial phase
cancellation that occurs when the outputs of two nearly adjacent pickups are combined, as they are
in switch positions 2 and 4 of a Strat.
What's not so well known is that more subtle -- but definitely audible -- partial phase
cancellations also occur within a pickup's coil because part of the signal is coming from turns
close to the string and part of it comes from turns considerably further away. For true phase
coherence, every turn of the pickup's coil would have to be equidistant from the string, a
practical impossibility. What Bill did was to minimize phase cancellation to the extent that's
practical by specifying that very narrow MicroCoil winding space. This is what allows the
MicroCoils' exquisite tonal purity, which I'm sure Bill could explain in proper technical terms but
to my ear comes across as a sense of intimacy with the string that I've never heard from any other
guitar pickup -- it's like a MicroCoil is a freshly washed pane of clear glass, while traditional
single-coil designs are more like a piece of waxed paper or even cheesecloth, with the pickup's
coil dimensions impacting clarity in a way that cannot be readily corrected elsewhere in the signal
chain. In contrast, the more phase coherent, transparent clarity of a MicroCoil can be readily
altered to achieve all manner of "waxed paper" or "cheesecloth" effects -- but the player is never
stuck with a sound he may only want once in a while. One of Bill's design watchwords has always
been "versatility," and their transparency helps make MicroCoils amazingly versatile.
Efficiency
Another advantage of the MicroCoils' narrow winding space is that more turns closer to the strings
make for improved efficiency -- more signal for any given inductance. An additional factor in the
MicroCoils' impressive efficiency is the meticulous design of the magnetic circuit. Total magnetism
-- which experts call the "energy product" -- has two components. Just as electricity has voltage
and current (amperes), magnetism has magnetic attraction (gauss) and demagnetization force
(oersted). While magnetic attraction is what causes string-strangling problems like "Stratitis" and
loss of sustain, it turns out it's the demagnetization force that's more relevant to how much
signal is generated. One type of magnet that favors the desirable demagnetization force over the
often-troublesome magnetic attraction is the modern neodymium variety. Unfortunately, such magnets
are far too strong -- they have a very large total energy product -- to charge pole pieces
directly. Bill's MicroCoil magnetic circuit includes a steel moderator bar between the neodymium
bar magnet and the pole pieces -- this maintains a favorable ratio of demagnetization force to
magnetic attraction while reducing the latter to a level that avoids loss of sustain or
"Stratitis."
Wonderful "side effects"
Bill's design goal of versatility implies that the instrument's controls be highly effective in
altering the sound -- for high inductance designs like the Bill's famous L-500XL humbucker, the
best way to meet that goal is to employ an inductor (passive coil) in a tone control circuit that
optionally also includes a resistor along with the usual capacitor in a circuit Bill calls a
"Q-Filter." Without getting into the actual math, the very fine wire used in the MicroCoils
increases the electrical resistance (Er) and thus alters the LCR
(inductance/capacitance/resistance) interaction that determines (among other things) how the tone
control operates. This in turn allows a conventional tone circuit (comprising a potentiometer wired
as a variable resistor in series with a capacitor) to operate much more effectively than it does
with conventional single-coils and eliminates the need for an inductor as in the "Q-Filter." This
means that the MicroCoils can be perfect, "drop-in" replacement pickups -- at most, you might find
you like a different capacitor value, but the tone circuit can remain just like it came from the
factory. I found the typical 22 nanofarad (.022 mFd) "chicklet" capacitor in my guitar to be pretty
much perfect.
Another wonderful "side effect" of installing MicroCoils is that the same altered LCR interaction
that permits a conventional tone circuit also minimizes the effect of cable capacitance. Excessive
cable capacitance has a major impact on the performance of guitars with high inductance pickups and
even many lower inductance models wound with a typically thicker magnet wire -- to avoid severe
losses in the cable, low capacitance cable (25 picofarad/foot or lower) is a must and even then
cable length needs to considered. With the MicroCoils, this issue becomes pretty much a non-problem
-- you can use virtually any cable for a short (ten feet or less) run, or choose a low-capacitance
cable (I use Bill's cable and solderless plugs) that's considerably longer with no ill effects -- I
just measured the cable I've been using regularly and it's nearly 15 feet long!
_____
Like I said, it's unfinished -- I just hope you find it helpful!
Bruce Morgen
2012-05-11 02:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
I was referring to whether the filament
supply was ground ref'd or floating. Just trying to narrow down the
differences between the two amps.
The DC to the first hole
socket is floating. The
filament winding of the
PT is ground-referenced
via a pair of 100 ohm 1
watt resistors.
Is there a schematic online somewhere?
Yup:

<Loading Image...>
Post by RS
I'd think that the 100ohm
resistors would be enough of a ground-ref, presuming the circuit is as
I'm imagining. You could also switch the filaments back to AC to see
if that has any bearing.
Yeah, that would be easy
enough -- great minds
think alike, and so do
you and I. I'm
beginning to suspect the
(unnecessary but cheap)
regulator IC I included
in the DC filament mod.
I'll remove that from
the circuit first and see
if that change does the
trick -- if not I'll
tear out the whole mod
and restore the factory
filament circuit.

While I'm in there, I'll
put in that passive
effects loop I mentioned
-- child's play aside
from drilling holes for
the extra jacks, and the
pedal is alleged to work
well that way.
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
Post by RS
I haven't seen the Lawrence Microcoils yet. I'll check them out.
How would -increased- coil resistance limit the effect of cable
capacitance?
Bill showed me the LCR
calculations, but I don't
remember them, sorry --
but I can say that I can
switch from my three foot
practice cable to a
fifteen footer with no
discernible loss of highs
on my Microcoil-equipped
guitar; the same change
with my other guitars
definitely incurs an
audible loss in sparkle
that I have to compensate
for with the amp's
"presence" control.
Interesting! I'll definitely look into those pickups.
Post by Bruce Morgen
Here's what they look
<http://wildepickups.com/images/ddce0d3d0b169381f97ece44a4c11a84.jpg>
I never finished this
write-up, but you might
Nice review. (I'll leave it intact below). The structure is difficult
to discern from the pictures. They all obviously have a narrow coil
very near to the strings, with a mechanical 'elevation' where the
remainder of the regular coil would normally be. I couldn't see much
in the way of magnets though.
The inside ends of the
pole pieces contact a
steel moderator bar
and the neodymium bar
charges them through
that steel. Ingenious,
as is the fixture Bill
designed to facilitate
assembly -- assembling
anything the includes a
magnet that strong is a
giant PITA without that
sort of assistance.
Post by RS
And one of the pictures looks like
there's something made of copper on the bottom section.
The baseplate is copper-
clad FR-4, like most of
Bill's pole piece models.
Post by RS
I couldn't find much on Bill's site about those. If you talk to him,
tell him it would be nice to see a couple pages of tech info on the
MicroCoils. I may have to get a set of those. He doesn't make a P90
version, does he?
The Microcoils are
essentially perfected
P-90s -- but that
perfection means they
don't sound like
traditional P-90s, which
are more than a little
imperfect. He does have
a noisefree similar
performing to a P-90 --
the model is L-610, it
has Gibson 'bucker
mounting centers, but
it's narrow like a
vintage P-90 and comes
with a special mounting
ring so you can drop it
into a Les Paul or SG
no problem. I'm not
personally fond of it,
but it's about as
P-90ish as it gets in a
noiseless pickup. The
L-609 is similar, but
it has hardened (and
non-adustable) poles --
that's the P-90/JM
"hybrid" you mention
below, more sparkly and
all-around "Fendery"
than the L-610.
Post by RS
He also has a custom pickup that I'm interested in...the cross between
a Jazzmaster and P90. I've always wondered why no one did that. That's
not hum-canceling though, is it?
It is -- as quiet as any
'bucker, quieter than most.
Post by RS
Post by Bruce Morgen
[snip]
T***@bailey.com
2012-05-26 13:57:46 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 10 May 2012 22:12:56 -0400, Bruce Morgen <***@juno.com>
wrote to RS:

Yeah, that would be easy
enough -- great minds
think alike, and so do
you and I.

I'm glad you made it clear that you were not referring to you and RS
having great minds....because I'd have to argue that point...

Loading...